Saltwater into fire

01st June 2007

You really have to see this to believe it. No that’s likely not good enough. You’ll have to get your own low energy radio wave machine and toast some salt water yourself. That’s what’s John Kanzius has done. The Sanibel Island Florida inventor was looking for a way to desalinate water but instead found a way to burn salt water. According to reports low energy radio waves split the H20 up into hydrogen & oxygen. It looks like The Na & Cl in solution acted as a heat sink or electrolyte . Or anyhow I assume so since the process wouldn’t work on fresh water. Maybe the RF acts as the catalyst as this discussion suggests. See below for the answer. One way or another -something bubbled out of solution. And with a flick of a bic the gases turned to fire.
Anyhow here’s a couple videos.

Salt Water into Fuel
Saltwater into fire 2
Saltwater into fire 3
Saltwater into fire 4

Understand. Electrolysis results in a net loss of energy. ie you put in more energy than you get out. Do not conflate electrolysis with radio waves. Radio waves represent a much smaller energy input.

Small enough to make for a net gain in energy?

For anyone with serious math skills, it should be possible to do a rough–back of the envelope– calculation based on the comments of this article:

Charles Rutkowski placed a test tube filled with ordinary salt water into John Kanzius’ external radio-wave generator.
He then blasted the salt water with 200 watts’ worth of directed radio waves, not quite enough electricity to light three 75-watt light bulbs.
Within seconds, a blue flame erupted from the top of the test tube. It then turned bright white like a blowtorch’s flame and burned for several minutes at about 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit.
“I’ve done this countless times and it still amazes me,” said Rutkowski, general manager of Industrial Sales and Manufacturing, the Millcreek company that builds Kanzius’ generators.

So what’s going on?

For starters, here’s a simple experiment that shows that salt increases many fold the output of hydrogen from electrolysis. (The Kansius experiment does not involve electrolysis but rather Radio Waves).

Here is a second bit of fun with a microwave that shows that the microwave can turn a flame off and on at will and make the flame burn high & hot. You can see in Kansius’s salt water burning video how Kansius turns the high hot fire off and on at will. The suggestion here is that the radio waves are both splitting the water and then further exciting the flames. As well, I’m suggesting that the process is analogous to that in a microwave oven.

Update:I talked on the phone to one of the scientists Ed Apsega at APV Engineering in Akron Oh. They tested John Kanzius process. I was told the flame burned at more than 1700 degrees Celcius or 3000 degrees Farenheit. (Its not clear to me currently as to whether the energy yield is more or less than 1:1. Why? Well the APV engineering scientist Ed Apsega said the energy yield was much more than 2:1 and later I talked to John Kanzius–he said the energy yield was less than 1:1.) The yellow flame was the glass burning. (The flame started out clear.) The temperature inches away from the flame was room temperature. Tests afterwards showed that the water was reduced and the mineral content by percent increased in the water. The Na in the water decreased but not significantly. John Kanzius would like government money for his salt water project so that he can work on his cure for cancer. I’ve been promised a follow up email/phone call from Kanzius so that he can provide a contact number/email that I can post. So check back.Update: Ok I talked with John Kanzius. He’s ok with being reached at johnkanzius (at) aol.com. There are three machines available. It would be helpful if someone qualified checked this thing out.

According to this site:

June 01, 2007

“Regarding moving this forward, I want to see what are the best results we can achieve with joules in vs joules out. A chemist in Houston whom I know is going to be doing a couple of things for me this weekend.” — John Kanzius (June 01, 2007)

“What burns at a temperature of over 1700 C? [Knowing the answer to that question] might take some of the guess work out of the equation.” (May 29, 2007)

June 06, 2007

John Kanzius writes:

“Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information.

“Actually there are smart individuals who have posted on different web sited and actually have a pretty good idea of what is happening.”

……………….

So why is the flame so high? Why doesn’t the wick burn? Why does the temperature so near to the flame revert back to room temperature? (See below.) The answer to all three questions seems to be that the flame shown in the video is an electrical fire. Some are calling it a plasma fire.

Slide Three of this slide show has a still of the Therm Med LLC External RF System. The machine is proprietary radio frequency machine. You’ll have to check with John Kanzius about that. See above.It appears that the secret sauce in the process is in the RF frequency. The frequency itself is the catalyst.
Consider this patent on the process: (It looks like somehow the radio waves immitate platinum.)

Catalytic simulation using radio frequency waves

Document Type and Number:

United States Patent 6217712

Link to this page:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6217712.html

Abstract:

The invention relates to a method of using radio frequency waves to artificially create catalytic action in a catalyst-free chemical reaction within a substance. To mimic or imitate the catalyst, radio frequency waves are transmitted through the substance at a signal strength sufficient to electronically reproduce the effect of the physical presence of a selected catalyst. The radio frequency waves have a selected transmission frequency substantially equal to a catalyst signal frequency of the selected catalyst, defined as the signal frequency determined by nuclear magnetic resonance of the selected catalyst. It is commonplace to use nuclear magnetic resonance to identify elements within a substance and the signal frequencies of various elements (including catalysts) are listed in widely published tables. To date, the mechanism by which catalysts bring about chemical reactions has been unknown. The inventor has recognised that the physical presence of a catalyst brings about a chemical reaction due to the emission of low intensity radio frequency waves from the catalyst with the signal frequency that is emitted being the signal frequency of the catalyst that is commonly determined by nuclear magnetic resonance. Therefore, the invention can be used to eliminate the need for expensive metallic catalysts, such as platinum. The invention electronically reproduces the effect of the physical presence of a catalyst by transmission of a radio frequency wave with a signal frequency equal to that signal frequency emitted by the catalyst and as determined by nuclear magnetic resonance of the catalyst.

Here is a list of his patents related to the process.

more on patents:

download PDF (Systems and methods for combined RF-induced hyperthermia and radioimmunotherapy, 2005)

download PDF (Enhanced systems and methods for RF-induced hyperthermia II, 2006)

European Patent Office (Kanzius patents)

WIPO.int (Kanzius patents)

European Patent Office RASBACH KLAUS (DE) This is an expired patent. I believe this gives the key.

In resonance-based generation of H2 and O2 from water, using a hypersonic generator of suitable frequency, the resonance frequency (fO) can be that corresp. to the distance (d) between the nucleus of the O atoms and its outer electron shell or the proton. fO can be calculated approx. from the formula: fO = c/(pi.d), where c= the speed of sound in water and pi= the Ludolf’s no). USE/ADVANTAGE – The H2 can be used as fuel in power stations or in hydrogenation (hardening fat), synthesis of petrol, MeOH and NH3, redn in metallurgy, in welding etc. The O2 can also be used for technical and other purposes. The overall efficiency of the process is much higher than usual and the process is more friendly to the environment.

According to this poster:

“Perhaps if we could find a substance with a NMR frequency of 13.56 mhz then that is our catalyst…”. Now if you can just turn that around a bit–you might get that the frequency that the machine is imitating is that produced by platinum or 13.56 mhz.

According to this poster:

From what I understand of this, (1) day reading, is that every metal has a moleculer frequency. The patent says that these numbers are readily available.

Next, you take your RF signal generator and set it to that frequency and put it into the solution according to the patent.

The solution “feels” the catalyst. If it had a brain it would be tricked into thinking it is seeing that particular metal.

My first thought is KOH in water and Aluminum. Replace the Aluminum with the molecular resonant frequency of the Aluminum metal and you have the KOH water mixture thinking you just put in AL. And here comes Hydrogen!! Can you say,”unbelievable!” Where has this tech been?!

Here are additional links:

Water into fuel?

Fla. Man Invents Machine To Turn Water Into Fire

How John Kanzius’ push to cure cancer may have discovered alternate fuel

Here’s a google search for Kanzius+burn+water.

“On our way to try to do desalinization, we came up with something that burns, and it looks in this case that salt water perhaps could be used as a fuel to replace the carbon footsteps that we’ve been using all these years, i.e., fossil fuels,” Kanzius said.

If it’s for real, the possible ramifications of the discovery are almost mind-boggling, as cars could be fueled by salt water instead of gasoline, hydroelectric plants could be built along the shore, and homes could be heated without worrying about supplies of oil.

“It doesn’t have to be ocean salt water,” Kanzius said. “It burns just as well when we add salt to tap water.”

Thus far, Kanzius’ work has not received extensive national publicity, but has been featured on several local television news programs, including WPBF-TV in West Palm Beach, Fla., WSEE-TV in Erie, Pa., and WKYC-TV in Cleveland. “We discovered that if you use a piece of paper towel as a wick, it lights every single time and you can start it and stop it at will by turning the radio waves on and off,” Kanzius told the Times-News as he watched a test tube of salt water burn.

“And look, the paper itself doesn’t burn,” he added. “Well, it burns but the paper is not consumed.”

Kanzius said he hasn’t decided whether to share his fuel discovery with government or private business, though he’d prefer a federal grant to develop it.

uh…. can someone fit this man’s work into their budget? I’m sure this could be worked around for water desalination/transport purposes.

Another but dissimilar process was announced recently where an aluminum-gallium alloy acted as the catalyst: (ie no RF was needed to make the reaction. But you might be able to tune radio wave to immitate the RF of aluminum-gallium)

I have blogged about working on desalination catalysts before but not really from the angle approached here. You can do a quick search on google for RF +deposition OR RF “water splitting” OR RF semiconductor. It looks like the semiconductor industry uses RF energy to split gas molecules, then recombines them to deposit chemical films onto wafers. According to this poster

I’ve seen another piece of equipment which uses magnetic
fields to direct ionized gases. I imagine this might be one method to
harvest the hydrogen before it has a chance to recombine with oxygen.

You might also tune RF to settle Na & Cl ions out of solution. Just a thought.

Posted in: turning saltwater in fire,Water Desalination Research and Development | Comments Off

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[…] Desalination Research And Development Breaking News Incisive Analysis « Saltwater into fire […]

Pingback by Low Pressure Desalination « Desalination Research And Development — June 8, 2007 @ 8:37 pm
I too have built several “water welders” using low voltage, hight current. As you say, the output in energy was less than that required to produce the effect. I am a retired 90 year old engineer and think he may be on to something, or at least worth some research. I wonder if he has tried talking to “NIST” and their research Dept, that looks at new ideas. I am interested in trying to reproduce the tests of splitting up H20 into Hydogen and Oxygen and see the flaim. I’m not sure as to about what frequency he used. Being a Ham operator since 1933, I probably have all the equipment required, and perhaps by showing what it does, I could get some one interested in contacting John, to offer support, In any case it would be VERY interesting to be able to repeat the experment for my amazement. I really would like to hear from you, and see if there is anyway I could help. Wallace L. Horton, 1132 Connway Dr., Hearh Oh. 43056, 740 522-1854. My valid E mail address is cjhorton@windstream.net

Comment by W.L.Horton — June 13, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
At the bottom of the post you’ll notice that there is a frequency quoted:13.56 mhz My guess would be without looking at a table — that this is the frequency for platinum. Since platinum is the (expensive) catalyst for hydrogen.

Comment by nick2 — June 13, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
You have no idea how dangerous this can be to the established interests in the Oil business. If they cannot control it, they will spend huge amounts to kill it. I would even be cautious in filing for a patent as BIG money controls the Government. If this thing works or can be perfected to work,, there is plenty of private money around to finance it. I have a plan on how to do it, but the inventor would need to contact me at davigregory@gmail.com, 480-396-4734, Gregory Davis

Comment by Gregory Davis — June 26, 2007 @ 9:35 pm
I did not realize that Mr Kanzius had cancer. There has been a known cure for cancer for many years. It is in the Omega 3/Omega 6 fats consumed. I can give Mr. Kanzius exactly how to cure himself of his cancer if he would contact me: Gregory Davis, davigregory@gmail.com. 480-396-4734

Comment by Gregory Davis — June 26, 2007 @ 9:50 pm
Mr Davis,

I think people will be all over this….if there is anything to it. imho What an enterprising inventor should do is first check out the underlying premise….ie that you can substitute a radio wave of a certain radio frequency for a given catalyst. Here it looks like the catalyst is platinum. So substitute the RF for platinum. Find a table that establishes what the RF for platinum is. Then get a RF machine and bombard some salt water with radio waves tuned to platinum’s RF. If you can immitate Kanzius’s results then you should be able to do the same thing with any other reaction that needs a catalyst. This is big hairy idea in the middle of this experiment. For example with platinum alone…if you could substitute cheap radio waves for expensive platinum then you could collapse the cost of hydrogen fuel cell batteries….since the big cost there is the cost of platinum. But heck there’s an infinite array of other reactions that require expensive catalysts. check it out . find a niche.

Comment by nick2 — June 27, 2007 @ 5:46 am
Sounds like a load of it.

Comment by Xaquin — July 2, 2007 @ 6:34 pm
Hallo Inventors,
this sounds great. Please inform me, how to build a RF Generator. Or, where to purchase a inexpensive one.

Comment by Werner Kläui — July 4, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
I think that this discovery has opened a doorway for inventors. The reactions that are achieved by the process is the biggest advancement and should allow others to further their research by using this new fusion process.

Comment by Ed Stern — August 21, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
I wish I could find more updates on the progress of this. Also how much is one of those RF generators? I could set one up in my garage and experiment also.

Comment by Keith Pung — August 24, 2007 @ 6:42 am
13.56 MHz is a frequency used for industrial heating. Since radiation is permitted at this frequency, some were hoping it might be useful. For the actual frequency used, read the patents and combine that with your knowledge of chemistry. If you know enough to not blow up your house or irradiate your neighbors it will be obvious. Remember that a patent must give someone with a knowledge in the art the full information necessary to reproduce the invention, and his patent certainly meets that requirement. Mr. Kanzius’ work is very interesting and I hope him the best of luck with his cancer research.

Comment by Peter — September 11, 2007 @ 8:49 pm
Likely too there is a harmonic involved.

Comment by nick2 — September 12, 2007 @ 12:35 am
Oh…. It should be noted that the first patent regarding imitation of catalysts with RF waves isn’t Kanzius’. I can’t really comment on the useability of Kanzius’ discovery, but the degree of my skepticism went up 1000% after reading the first patent, which is gibberish, thankfully it wasn’t his.

I work in a theoretical/computational chemistry lab and study the use of ternary alloyed transition metal nanoparticle catalysts in the cathodes of hydrogen fuels cells, modelling how these particles help O2 to dissociate so the individual oxygen atoms can react with hydrogen atoms, forming H2O. The claim that we have no idea ‘how catalysts work’ is abit of an overstatement. One example of how catalysts work is by stressing the bonds of their substrate molecules. As a molecule of oxygen approaches a Pt surface it can become energetically favorable for the oxygen atoms to move apart because it allows them to be in a more favorable configuration with respect to the platinum. Additionally, the electronic configuration of the O2 molecule can be altered by having electrons being transfered from the Pt surface to the O2 molecule. With a stressed, and weakened O-O bond, the amount of energy necessary to completely severe the bond becomes reduce, speeding up the reaction because now a larger population of molecules within the reaction vessel are above that critical energy threshold. Both of these effects are very “physical”, they involve the the proximity of the O2 to the catalysts so that the catalyst can either tug on it’s bonds or give it electrons, meaning you’re not going to be able to reproduce these effects by just bombarding you’re substrate with a radio-wave.

Comment by Joe Williams — September 12, 2007 @ 4:15 am
I agree with Joe Williams, and I’ll chip in a little.

If platinum or some other catalyst worked by microwave radiation, you could quickly demonstrate a catalyst acting at a distance, e.g. 1mm away from the centre of a circular platinum plate a foot across. Doesn’t work.

The electric activity of O2 on the platinum is not going to be duplicated by radiation alone, at least for reactions in general, as the patent seems to hope; the metal is a conductor has magnetic susceptibility and the like.

I put the patent number 6217712 into this searcher at the US Patent Office:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm
I got:
Inventors: Mohr; Thomas J. (Maple, Ontario, CA)
and a description of the claims.

And of course any claim that more joules come out than go in is just crankery or fraud, even if some newspaper people are ignorant enough to believe it.

Comment by Skeptic — September 12, 2007 @ 10:57 am
[…] up. I am not trying to be negative about the invention, just pointing out some facts. This site states that they did gain energy from this process. It’s stated about a 1/4 of the way down the […]

Pingback by Burning saltwater? - Page 2 - NECO Forums — September 12, 2007 @ 6:01 pm
guys there’s a two fold and maybe three fold process going on here. Its not just the radio waves are immitating the frequency of platinum plus maybe a harmonic to destablize the H2O molecule but also the sodium Na is acting as a heat sink. The Na is a metal. You can see a video above of what happpens when you put metal in a microwave. It gets very hot fast. Anyone familiar wtih carbon steam reformation knows that its accomplished with platinum/water/methane/heat/pressure. So you’re getting a very destabilized H20 molecule exposed to a lot of heat. given enough heat you don’t need pressure. The sodium then performs the role of an electrolyte. That effect the nature of the flame

You can see in the videos above that if you add salt to water during electrolys — that more hydrogen is produced. The next experiment wouldd be something like what would happen if you increased the concentration of salt in solution. this would be of interest to people in desalination as there is a heavy concentration of brine left over after desalination. The other question would be whether the the radio frequncy for platinum could be substituted for platinum hydrogen fuel cells

Comment by nick2 — September 12, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
US Patent Application 10/756,517 describes a water based substitute for gasoline and the mechanism for burining the new fuel. The water based substitute is NOT patented and is in the public domain.
This is how it works.
A small amount of finely powdered coal (carbon) is mixed with a very weak salt water solution. A hair-thin stream of the mixture is injected between two high voltage electrodes INSIDE the combustion chamber. An electric charge flows through the water (short circuit) and the electric arc raises the temperature of some of the water to about 6,000, which is as hot as the surface of the sun. Some of the water breaks down into Hydrogen and Oxygen and promptly explodes, igniting the carbon.
Carbon may not be the best ingredient but this uses a lot less carbon than gasoline.

Comment by nick2 — September 13, 2007 @ 8:47 am
May I say, as a non scientist:

This f’in rocks!!!!

Comment by jv — September 13, 2007 @ 4:31 pm
I put the patent number 6217712 into this searcher at the US Patent Office:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm

Catalytic simulation using radio frequency waves

Abstract

The invention relates to a method of using radio frequency waves to artificially create catalytic action in a catalyst-free chemical reaction within a substance. To mimic or imitate the catalyst, radio frequency waves are transmitted through the substance at a signal strength sufficient to electronically reproduce the effect of the physical presence of a selected catalyst. The radio frequency waves have a selected transmission frequency substantially equal to a catalyst signal frequency of the selected catalyst, defined as the signal frequency determined by nuclear magnetic resonance of the selected catalyst. It is commonplace to use nuclear magnetic resonance to identify elements within a substance and the signal frequencies of various elements (including catalysts) are listed in widely published tables. To date, the mechanism by which catalysts bring about chemical reactions has been unknown. The inventor has recognised that the physical presence of a catalyst brings about a chemical reaction due to the emission of low intensity radio frequency waves from the catalyst with the signal frequency that is emitted being the signal frequency of the catalyst that is commonly determined by nuclear magnetic resonance. Therefore, the invention can be used to eliminate the need for expensive metallic catalysts, such as platinum. The invention electronically reproduces the effect of the physical presence of a catalyst by transmission of a radio frequency wave with a signal frequency equal to that signal frequency emitted by the catalyst and as determined by nuclear magnetic resonance of the catalyst.
Inventors: Mohr; Thomas J. (Maple, Ontario, CA)
Appl. No.: 09/412,359
Filed: October 5, 1999

Comment by nick2 — September 13, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
[…] and Penn State Chemist Rostum Roy Back in June I posted extensively about John Kanzius RF machine that cracked hydrogen out of saltwater. His last comments at the time […]

Pingback by Kanzius and Penn State Chemist Rostum Roy « Desalination Research And Development — September 14, 2007 @ 6:12 am
[…] en savoir plus (pour ceux qui lisent l’anglais) : Saltwater into fire : en résumé, les ario fréquences semblent jouer le rôle de catalyseur, en remplacement du […]

Pingback by Energie : La grande découverte « SPQR — September 14, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
you probably say that to everyone

Comment by nick2 — September 14, 2007 @ 10:23 pm
[…] en savoir plus (pour ceux qui lisent l’anglais) : Saltwater into fire : un premier article de nick2 sur les travaux de John Kanzius, datant […]

Pingback by L’eau salée “brûle” « SPQR — September 15, 2007 @ 4:32 am
thanks for the links.

Comment by nick2 — September 15, 2007 @ 5:43 am
I appreciate all the intellegent banter. The redeeming quality that this technique may have is that the radio frequency is low power. That may very well allow the liberation of the hydrogen molecules for far less cost than that of fossil fuels. The real issue here is that the price of oil is artificially high. Any power source that has the potential to unseat big oil must make its energy available at about 20 – 25% of what the current price of a comparable fuel, because the profit to the oil cartels is about 4-500% of what it actually costs to retreive , ship and process oil into usable fuel. Once we get at the 25 -20% cost ratio, the oil rich nations can then attempt to eat the oil they have underground.

Comment by Bren Stockdale — September 17, 2007 @ 9:17 am
For a second update see
http://www.rdwaterpower.com/2007/09/14/kanzius-and-penn-state-chemist-rostum-roy/

Comment by nick2 — September 18, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
I am not going to attempt to comment on the electrochemical process. I wanted to point out that there is generally about a 60% efficiency involved in generating the RF used to excite this reaction. So the claimed 200W RF output would require about 330W from the plug in the wall.

Comment by ronr — September 20, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
On my web “Nikola Tesla and My Thoughts” , I put lot of Tesla’s and my thoughts:
http://free-ri.htnet.hr/Branko/index.html

This RF salt/water is very interesting, and I will try to build some simple experimental machine. Coil around tube with salt/water inside, condenser, and spark gap inside the tube. RF generator and spark burn inside the tube. Could gravitational E=mgh from H2 and O2 water (when going up) do in some gain of energy? If tube is high, that gravitational energy will increase. It need heat mesurement.

Comment by Branko — September 21, 2007 @ 10:31 am
Hey Nick2,
Could you ask John Kanzius if it would be possible to use RF energy(this process) to split CO2 into Carbon and O2 efficiently?
Thanks a lot,
Casey

Comment by Casey — September 21, 2007 @ 9:20 pm
well there might be a slight of hand going on here. The oxygen that reunites with the hydrogen to make the flame might not be coming from O in the H2O but rather from the air split out from O2 or split out from CO2 that’s in the air above the test tube. The RF is hitting not just the water but also the air above it.

I don’t know if it makes any difference where the oxygen comes from.

Comment by nick2 — September 21, 2007 @ 10:12 pm
Perhaps a frightening thought!!! but what would happen if you directed a powerful beam of radio waves at these frequencies at the ocean,what would be the outcome?

Comment by SteveJ — September 24, 2007 @ 8:38 am
I heard a man report on another thread that he and his wife were sailing in the Caribbean on time. They saw a lightning strike the ocean. The ocean burned for a time.They didn’t know what to make of it.

Comment by nick2 — September 24, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
That sure looks like an

ENI OEM-12B3

a 13.56 MHz RF Generator

Comment by Dan L — October 19, 2007 @ 12:55 am
[…] Re: Salt, NaCl, Sodium Chloride. – Today, 09:29 PM This is a nice site so far as the explanation….. and a lot of contributions from the readers Saltwater into fire « Desalination Research And Development […]

Pingback by Hypography Science Forums - Salt, NaCl, Sodium Chloride. — October 21, 2007 @ 5:28 am
I would also like to try this experiment. Some of my thoughts. 13.56 MHz is just below the 20meter ham band so cheep equipment is available through that source.
Some thoughts. If the salt or the water is being stimulated at the 13.56 Mhz then maybe one might find the frequency to excite the other element (IE water) and stimulate both at once and maybe use a lot less energy. How about using the 13.56Mhz coupled directly to the water, less lossy. How about using something like salpheric acid with or in place of the salt. Or find an additional catalus to use with the salt to increase the productiion of the gasses. 503-429-7006 day time Pacific time.

Comment by Alfred Mikalow — October 21, 2007 @ 6:08 am
Something I forgot to mention – The H2 and O are mixed in the correct amounts to produce an explosion. Before you can use the output as a fuel they have to be separated and recombined at the engine.
If you try to run a tube to the test tube the flame will go right to the test tube and burn inside the tube you are using to transfer your fuel to an engine. You do not want to contain these gases they will explode and violently. 503-429-7006 day tim Pacific time.

Comment by Alfred Mikalow — October 21, 2007 @ 6:26 am
I have read on other blogs that in order to design a proper energy i/o experiment–you have to do it in such a way that the energy output of the RF is efficiently absorbed by the saltwater,

As well, John Kanzius is expected to make an announcement soon. He’ll have to hurry. I’m sure there’s lots of guys right behind him.

Comment by nick2 — October 21, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
The interesting thing I see in the experiment is that the output is about 60 to 70% of the input. The efficiencies of the RF adsorbed is only about 10 to 20 % at best 30%. So if you run those numbers, it is greater then 100% output of the adsorbed energy. So this may be a viable project.

Comment by Alfred Mikalow — October 21, 2007 @ 6:53 pm
First Analysis of the Water Requirements of a Hydrogen Economy
Good article of the title mentioned above
http://www.physorg.com/news111926048.html

its followed by a commentator who seems to be describing the kanzius effect. His comments seem to contain the best explanation of what’s going on the atomic scale that I have seen thus far.

Electrolysis of water is not the answer. A process of HFR assisted plasma disassociation is more efficient. It requires less energy input and the hydrogen production is exponentially larger. The problems with standard electrolysis (low voltage, high amperage) and the necessity for an electrolyte are avoided such as excess heat production. The key is to separate the atoms by creating a resonant vibrational harmonic within the water molecule while simultaneously realigning the water isomers to prevent the atomic recombination of the monovalent radicals. This forces them to stabilize as dissolved divalent gas molecules of pure hydrogen and oxygen. These divalent molecules associate with one another, due to proximity effects (zeta potential), to form bubbles. As the bubbles get larger and gain buoyancy, they become visible. This is how many people in the past were able to achieve amazing results (e.g. Tesla, Rife, Meyer, and now Kanzius.
If anyone would like to discuss this feel free to contact me.

Carpe Diem

Comment by nick2 — October 23, 2007 @ 5:55 am
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt_Water_Using_Radio_Waves
On Oct. 5, 2007, John said that “the largest research centers and nanoscientists in the world” are involved in this project.

Comment by nick2 — October 24, 2007 @ 6:51 am
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Video:Water_as_Fuel_%28via_ZPE%29
peswiki links to an interview:

On Aug. 27, 2007, Sterling D. Allan conducted a one-hour, live interview with David Wenbert or H2Earth Institute regarding his work with Water Fuel Cells, and his theory that the “over unity” being observed in various electrolysis set-ups is closely related to the reason for “over unity” being observed in some electromagnetic set-ups.
http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/recordings/2007/070827_H2EarthWaterFuelCells_DavidWenbert.mp3

below 2.4 watt hours per liter is over unity according to farraday’s equation

Comment by nick2 — October 24, 2007 @ 7:18 am
I just don’t care what you say, i’m an electronic engineer, in border town in Mexico, in Baja Calif, Mexicali, when i was on school we where doing a project for a frequency oscillator, my school mates where playing as we have a rudimentary laboratory, all alone whit the machines we wanted, frequency oscillators, generators, computers, you named, a bunch of other machines, so we where there, was working they where playing, eating, and one of them brought me a big cup of coca cola and water, when i finish to assemble my circuit for the oscillator, this guy put two little wires whit a disk, like a reflector, and started reflecting all to my glass of water, simple water whit ice cubes, and them ignitiated a fire, i was so scare cause i have many lab machines on my table, but they where eating sandwiches, drinking soda and playing, so he say that this was so wonderful and like it to keep it in his home but he don’t have the equipment, all was functioning on 20 volts and less than 1 amp, much less, but i could not recall now, because for me was one of many fun times on school, now seeing this i gonna contact him, and see if we can start a desalination project, here is no goverment supervision, no oficial scientist, no affiliations, you do what you can, you read what ever science book comes on handy, and you get your technology stuff via swap meet, this was back them, now we have Mr. Slim providing us whit credit to computers, even so is not much advance, but i think i gonna reunite whit my old friend to see what we can do.

Comment by Beatriz Godinez — October 25, 2007 @ 10:15 am
I’m not a telecom or Ham Radio expert. So, I do not know what the
OEM-12B3 RF Generator is for. John Kanzius is using the RF generator for a different application than it was originally intended for. What is the industry use for a RF generator? Is it for testing purposes only? I don’t have a clue. Please for all the little inventors or the future Do-it-Yourselfers out there, please answer this question. Thanks in advance.

Comment by E. D. — November 4, 2007 @ 5:14 am
For more information about John Kanzius and his discoveries see the article on Wikipedia at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_energy
Some helpful external links are at the end of the article.

See also: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt_Water_Using_Radio_Waves

Comment by listening1 — December 11, 2007 @ 11:06 am
You can learn more about this and other patents at http://www.wikipatents.com. . WikiPatents has the largest database of patents open for public comment on the internet, allows PDF downloading of patents, free patent translation into multiple languages, and additional information and resources. It is the best free patent site on the web. I recommend you add it to your blog as a great resource for further patent related discussion.

Have a nice day,

Jamie

Comment by Jamie — January 22, 2008 @ 4:42 am
The frequency 13.56 MHz is a frequency for RFID systems.

Comment by Tim — February 5, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
Has John Kanzius or any other person who has been able to make salt water burn been able to measure the power density where the test tube had to be to cause the hydrogen to seperate out?

Comment by Tim — February 8, 2008 @ 2:52 pm
Rostum and others presented a paper to the Material Research last november entitle
4:30 PM V2.9
Single Mode 2.45 Ghz Microwave Caused Changes in the Structure of Water, and their Remarkable Stability
http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/doc.asp?CID=11140&DID=201649

I don’t know the contents of the paper but you might be able to pursue the matter and post your findings.

Comment by nick2 — February 8, 2008 @ 5:34 pm
These are the abstracts:
4:30 PM V2.9
Single Mode 2.45 Ghz Microwave Caused Changes in the Structure of Water, and their Remarkable Stability. Manju L. Rao1, Steven R. Sedlmayr2 and Rustum Roy3,1; 1Materials Research Institute, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania; 2Sedlmayr Technologies, LLC, Paradise Valley, Arizona; 3School of Materials, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona.

One of us has demonstrated in a dozen recent papers the most remarkable effects of single mode magnetic fields at 2.45 GHz on de-crystallizing, without melting, the most important technological families of solid, crystalline matter. Ferrites, TiO2, BaTiO3, Si, etc.) In a new device which will be described, this approach has been extended to liquids. In the case of distillation of pure (R-O) water, the 2.45 GHz single mode fields alter the structure and properties of the water very considerably. Extensive characterization data by UV-VIS, Raman spectroscopy and ICP chemical analysis carried out at different institutions will be presented to show the extraordinary structural changes, including in the main O-H stretching band. The changes moreover are stable for at least months, under normal handling.

4:45 PM V2.10
Resonant Spectral Control of NaCl Crystal Growth from Aqueous Solution. Amar S. Bhalla1, Ruyan Guo1, Juliana Brooks2 and Mark Mortenson2; 1Materials Research Institute, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania; 2General Resonance, LLC, Havre de Grace, Maryland.

This paper describes the growth of NaCl crystals from both saturated and unsaturated aqueous NaCl solutions, using resonant spectral irradiation with Na electronic emission wavelengths. Experiments have been conducted and repeated in two institutions. The most significant observations include the following data, obtained under temperature controlled conditions, with: a) resonant spectral irradiation; b) non-resonant irradiation; and c) no irradiation: 1) Primary and secondary nucleation rates are both increased with resonant spectral irradiation, compared to either non-resonant irradiation or no irradiation. 2) The thermal equilibrium for primary nucleation is shifted to a higher temperature with resonant spectral irradiation. 3) NaCl crystals are grown from thermally unsaturated (3° C hotter) solution using resonant spectral irradiation. 4) NaCl crystals are grown from aqueously diluted (1-6%) unsaturated solution using resonant spectral irradiation. 5) Crystal morphology is significantly changed using resonant spectral irradiation (e.g. with Na-D line irradiation the 111 growth predominates vs. the 001 growth found without radiation). The relative ease with which resonant spectral irradiation can shift thermal and concentration equilibria in aqueous crystal growth solutions, invites a reconsideration of the basic processes of crystallization as well as the influence of resonant spectral wavelengths in materials processes.

Comment by nick2 — February 8, 2008 @ 5:43 pm
those abstracts were at
http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/doc.asp?CID=11403&DID=202778

Comment by nick2 — February 8, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0711_technologue/

Kanzius’s lab demonstration offered little to convince me otherwise. Sure, a test tube of pure water sat there in his radio-wave gizmo with nothing happening, then a quarter teaspoon of Morton’s salt was added and, presto, the radio waves prompted it to catch fire. The gauge on the radio-wave generator read 200 watts, but there was no telling how much heat was coming off the flame or how much power was coming out of the wall, so I had no way of knowing whether this was an energy-losing parlor trick or a breakthrough.

Then I contacted Dr. Rustum Roy, an authority on the structure of liquid water at Penn State University, which houses one of the foremost microwave research labs. He hadn’t met Kanzius, but his enthusiasm for the concept was palpable. No hard research has been conducted as yet — it’s only been a few months since the water first caught fire — but Dr. Roy speculates that because the 13.56-MHz radio frequency is a harmonic of the natural frequency of sodium ions, the waves are causing these positive ions to vibrate intensely. Van der Waal’s effects attract the oxygen end of water molecules to the positive sodium ions, and the vibration shakes the oxygen molecules hard enough to break the hydrogen bonds, freeing the hydrogen gas, which then ignites and burns. If true, the radio waves may be giving us electrolysis at a deep energy discount, allowing the flame to produce a net energy gain without breaking any thermodynamic laws.

Comment by nick2 — February 11, 2008 @ 10:29 pm
Could the NaCl be unbonded to release pure sodium which catches fire in water? Just a thought from an old highschool chemistry student.

Comment by Glenn — March 19, 2008 @ 2:11 am
[…] links provided to pull up the pdf) This work basically confirms the information posted last year here and here. Note how the size of the flame varies with the concentration of NaCl. From the […]

Pingback by Rostum Roy’s Work With Kanzius Effect « Desalination Research And Development — April 18, 2008 @ 7:55 pm
I like to see the results by putting test tube encased in a vacuum. My guess nothing. At least then you can collect what gas is given off.

Comment by Tom — April 20, 2008 @ 11:22 pm
if this system works why sell it when he could form a company and float the idea on the share market to raise funds to develope further the technology.

a large oil company would buy it anyway

this would give shareholders the power to implement the system further and put it to use

Comment by simon walker — May 11, 2008 @ 12:14 pm
I doubt that venture capital is a problem…..if experiments “measure up”, the VC’s are already negotiating.

I would like to see Kanzius and other contributors do very well financially AND see the ongoing development of the applications shared on the NET. Desalination and Cancer cures are both too important to be managed by individual groups. Just make sure the people making progress get paid!

Comment by Krieg Campbell — May 14, 2008 @ 11:06 pm
it is my opinion that efficiency ratio can only be calculated after a maximum output is produced.to assert an opinion of efficiency based on a small quantity of water(that is: a few ounces) reacting with the rf signal is an error.to me it’s a matter of how much saltwater can be presented to the device in a given scenario and producing maximum output(maximum yeild).

Comment by Chris Wilson — May 17, 2008 @ 5:03 pm
in the automtive world there is a saying,”there is no replacement for displacement” and that is what i’m referring to above.saying that the process has a efficiency ratio of 1:1 or 2:1 is like basing the efficiency of a forest fire on the energy of the match that ignites it.to me this is the molecular eqivalent of a nuclear exlplosion,reason being that i happen to know that water breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen at 2000 degrees and the flame above the test tube is much hotter than that.

Comment by Chris Wilson — May 17, 2008 @ 5:14 pm
See below for Nuclear magnetic Resonance particularly oxygen.

http://www.chem.tamu.edu/services/NMR/periodic/index.shtml

Comment by Maxc — May 29, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
Well there’s a good answer. The Nuclear Magnetic Resonance for Oxygen is 13.556.

Comment by nick2 — May 29, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
The NMR FREQ. AT 23.487 kG. for Platinum is 21.462.

So why is platinum used as a catalyst in fuel cells

NMR FREQ. AT 23.487 kG. for nickel is 8.936

So why is nickel used as a catalyst in steam reforming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

Comment by nick2 — May 29, 2008 @ 11:02 pm
I wonder if you would increase efficiencies if you pitched two frequencies at the saltwater. The NMR for Oxygen is 13.556. The second frequency would be the NMR for Hydrogen at 100 (NMR FREQ.AT 23.487 kG.)

Then ratchet up the concentration of salt in the water.

Comment by nick2 — May 29, 2008 @ 11:06 pm
And also make sure that all the radio waves are absorbed and not dissipated.

Comment by nick2 — May 29, 2008 @ 11:07 pm
Anyone can order a 13.5 MHz Oscillator and hook it up to a battery to produce radio waves of that frequency. These are the same frequencies used in RF devices. In fact they’re commonplace now wiith the new type of credt card systems as well as inventory control devices for use with pda’s. Some hair removal devices also operate at the same frequency and can injure skin. Seems easy to re-produce using a number of devices.

Let me know if you want to know where to order thistype of oscillator.

Comment by maxc — May 31, 2008 @ 2:03 am
is there a place you can order on the cheap.

Comment by nick2 — May 31, 2008 @ 10:40 pm
and that is what i’m referring to above.saying that the process has a efficiency ratio of 1:1 or 2:1 is like basing the efficiency of a forest fire on the energy of the match that ignites it.to me this is the molecular eqivalent of a nuclear exlplosion,reason being that i happen to know that water breaks down into hydrogen and oxygen at 2000 degrees and the flame above the test tube is much hotter than that.
/////////////
I like your line of thought. However, when the radio wave is shut down –the fire also stops–so the match to forest-fire analogy doesn’t quite hold.

Comment by nick2 — May 31, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
http://www.mouser.com

Approx 2.50 with volume discounts.

Comment by maxc — June 1, 2008 @ 12:21 am
[…] think one of them might be desalinaton? Hmm well also there is the Kanzius effect. An efficient heat transfer process there might make the 3000 degree flame net energy for the […]

Pingback by Heat Transfer Efficiency For Boiling Water Increased 30 Fold « Desalination Research And Development — June 30, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
[…] John Kanzius process… The yellow flame was the glass burning. (The flame started out clear.) -blog on the topic So, I don’t know. […]

Pingback by Kanzius Effect RF-induced flame from saltwater - Page 2 - Science Forums — August 20, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
Why doesn’t Kanzius publish the ACTUAL details of the experiement instead of showing us little ‘video bites’? Clearly, the choice of 16.56 Mz as the exciting frequency has NOTHING to do with NMR resonance or any other mumbo jumbo. This frequency is allocated by the FCC as an ISM frequency!

If anyone wants to try these experiments themselves, purchase a used 16.56 MHz plasma etcher on e-bay. and couple it through a matching network to a coaxial coil [as they do for induction heating]. Alternatively, build a simple, single tube power triode oscillator based on a 3-1000z that could generate the necessary R.F.

If one watches the Kanzius U tube clip carefully, you’ll notice that the test tube used for the demonstration is not empty before the salt water is added. I’m fairly sure that the dark liquid in the bottom is a dispersion of gold nanoparticles which serve to absorb the RF energy. and dissociate the NaCl electrolyte. Much of Kanzius’ previous work involved the use of gold nanoparticles for inducing hyperthermia [for his cancer research]. I belive that his inadvertent discovery was a result of such earlier experiments.

There are several ISM frequencies available that might work far better than 16.56 MHz … 27.12 MHz and 40.68 MHz come to mind. In fact, one could probably pick up an old 10-11 meter linear at a flea market and do the experiment at very low cost.

Several sites on the web offer small samples of gold naoparticles at low cost … so let’s all do the experiments and see what the REAL story is. [I am]

Comment by Peter Hochstein — October 19, 2008 @ 1:27 pm
Here’s a pretty good chemists discussion of the the kanzius effect

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/28609695/m/778003727831/p/1

The take away is that there is a net loss of +137.67 energy lost. (But a lot of the RF has not been used/absorbed. So as is the process is not optimized.)

NaCl(aq) has a deltaH of -407 kcal/mol

Inserting into both sides of the equation, since it is spectator you get:

[(-407) + (191.17)] – [ 2(-258.83) + (-407)] = +379.5

The combustion stays at -241.83 as there is no NaCl.

You still end up with +137.67 energy lost.

Comment by nick2 — December 9, 2008 @ 8:55 am
[…] now turn to an article I found regarding this process on the Web site Desalination Research and Development: “Update: I talked on the phone to one of the scientists, Ed Apsega at APV Engineering in Akron […]

Pingback by Running a Car on Salt Water — December 11, 2008 @ 11:14 pm
FYI:

“Kanzius’ friend, Bernard Wise, built Kanzius’ prototype radio-wave generator at his Energy-Onix Broadcast Equipment Co., an AM and FM radio transmitter manufacturer in Vallatie, N.Y. Wise said he built the equipment for free to benefit humanity.

The 2,000-watt radio-frequency generator, which looks like a squat file cabinet, powers two units on a table in a UPMC lab where testing on rats soon will begin.”

Comment by SM — January 5, 2009 @ 8:35 pm
if you look up the thread you’ll notice that the frequency used to get the kanzius effect 13.56 MHz is the Nuclear Magnetic Resonance for Oxygen

It might be an interesting idea to try for an explosion. you might get an explosion if you hit the salt water with the radio frequency of the NMR of sodium — which is 26.451. The sodium is in stable ion form in the water because it has two added electrons–I believe.

But if you bombarded the salt water with radio waves of the RF 26.451–the NMR of sodium– you might knock out the two added electrons from the sodium ion.

Then there would be nothing but a pure sodium atom Na in water H2O. The effect of this is an explosion.

Hey properly controlled you might even get a controlled ignition like with gasoline in a car engine.

Comment by Charles — January 5, 2009 @ 8:51 pm
[…] little housekeeping before I get started…anyone interested in the Kanzius effect should thumb down to comment #74–and after looking at the comment– just for the hey of […]

Pingback by Algae oil & water | Water Power R&D — February 22, 2010 @ 4:17 am
[…] you read last weeks blog Saltwater into Fire any time between last Friday and Tuesday–you’ll want to check back. I have been pretty […]

Pingback by Low Pressure Desalination | Water Power R&D — April 8, 2010 @ 2:48 pm
[…] links provided to pull up the pdf) This work basically confirms the information posted last year here and here. Note how the size of the flame varies with the concentration of NaCl. From the […]

Pingback by Rostum Roy’s Work With Kanzius Effect | Water Power R&D — May 27, 2010 @ 9:06 pm